The Marvellous Suspender need your help to survive.

[gioxx]

Discussed in #196

^{Originally posted by gioxx October 18, 2022}
I wrote an article summarizing what might be the future of this add-on. Do you think you can help with its survival? Bring it on!
IT: https://gioxx.org/2022/10/18/the-marvellous-suspender-a-look-into-the-future/
EN: https://gioxx.org/2022/10/18/the-marvellous-suspender-a-look-into-the-future/#en-us

Thanks to all our users and contributors.

June 2024: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
🇮🇹 https://go.gioxx.org/tms-thelastdance
🇺🇸 https://go.gioxx.org/tms-thelastdance#en-us

[jackphelps]

Sounds like they've postponed it some, and this is a promising announcement: https://groups.google.com/u/0/a/chromium.org/g/chromium-extensions/c/zQ77HkGmK9E

... it seems like probably the package wouldn't have worked anyway, without access to the DOM, but that they might be reconsidering that?

I haven't written js in a long time, so I'm not sure about that and don't feel especially qualified for the upgrade, but I'm following the issue and can at least take a look when I have time. Thank you for all the work you've been putting in!

[gissf1]

@gioxx I could try helping out here with development occasionally, if you still need assistance. I haven't looked into any of the code here yet, but I'm a long term user and have many years of software development experience.

Is there any development plan in place, or do we still need to design that yet?

Since the latest Chrome (v110+?) now has Memory Saver built-in, maybe the new version of this plugin should build on top of that, and avoid duplicating any overlapping functionality? I think it would make sense to compare what we offer with what Memory Saver does to avoid redundant effort.

[gioxx]

Ciao @gissf1
thank you for your message, it's really heartening, and yes, I confirm that my request for help still stands today because as you may have seen, I have stopped the development of the extension to try to regroup with someone really capable and breathe life back into this project that I would be so sorry to have cease.

There is no new development plan to date; it should be designed from scratch.

The latest version of Chrome certainly brings on board the Memory Saving feature, which could be better exploited via Marvellous Suspender, which-perhaps-at this point could really lighten up and dedicate itself to more special features requested loudly by users. I totally agree with you about avoiding developing something that already exists and perhaps going against what Google introduced.

[ossilator]

due to an issue created for TGS, i noticed that there is now something that calls itself "The Great Suspender Original" and at least superficially seems to be a continuation of the original work. as TGS is GPL-licensed, you're free to use the derived work even if the owner doesn't publish the source or even protests.

there is also "The Great Suspender", which is presumably another fork.

[gioxx]

The Chrome store is full of forks of the original extension, "The Great Suspender Original" I hadn't noticed it while "The Great Suspender" yes.

It would be nice if developers would provide references to repositories here on GitHub (GitLab or anything else) where we can work together and check that everything is in order (although you could always download the extension files and analyze them as much as possible).

[christopherreay]

Hmm..

So I am interested (not commiting to!) in taking on the role you suggest, to redevelop TMS.

My entire life/work cycle is dependent on TMS. I have.. about 60 browser profiles, with currently maybe... 5000 open tabs.

For my part there are a couple of things I might add to the tool, but basically it does exactly what I want and is efficient and clean and doesnt do annoying stuff :)

I have got many people to install this. I am a full time developer and product owner, working globally on many projects including ReFi and etc etc.

but hey, gotta give back some time

Couple of questions... like

• what is the current installed userbase of TMS?
• are there other tools that do the same thing (not including clones of the original repo, I was there when TMS took over from TGS)? And that are perhaps being maintained, and we could just build a bridge from TMS to their format, and build an autoexporter, and allow that project to take the mantle?
• if not... does TMS monetise itself in any way? Accept donations? or... anything at all? ( dont need the money, but its important to the project profile to understand)
• From there, I would start to look at what context the new Manifest3 puts on the fundamental intention of TMS, how does it get changed into that new space.... does chrome perhaps already do pretty much all of what TMS might do in Manifest3 space?

lets have a chat on here for a bit, and then we can have a zoom at a later date if it all fits.

also fyi, i have been meaning to build some tools for browser extension management into our platform, so this is a good excuse :) tyty for the wonderful work so far ;) x

[ossilator]

you could have looked yourself ...
i found two serious contenders:

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tab-suspender/fiabciakcmgepblmdkmemdbbkilneeeh

• this is a "serious" one; it can apparently do everything TMS can do. specifically, it can do "traditional" suspend ("parking") with optional use of native discard. but it's not open source (though it all being JS, you could at least audit it)

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tiny-suspender/bbomjaikkcabgmfaomdichgcodnaeecf

• foss. apparently, it can't combine traditional suspension with native discarding so far (there is a mode toggle to do exclusively one of them).

then there is also a bunch of "discarders", which have the inherent disadvantage that they are unable to suspend the foreground tab in a (visible?) window (when you discard the current tab, the "auto tab discard" extension just switches to the next tab).

(there is also "workona tab suspender", which i'd classify as malware, which you'll understand if you try it ...)

[christopherreay]

I indeed could have, but to do a thorough check of things that I havent been keeping track of would take days. Im supergrateful, and had noticed you had been keeping track.

So basically... TMS is one of or the leading tool for this. It has a great following as far as I can tell. I will have a look at the other things you suggested and compare.

Honestly I was asking some clear questions to the people that run this since it is a concern of theirs, I am just a user.

Im willing to commit a bunch of time.

I reviewed yesterday for a couple of hours the Manifest3 stuff from chrome, and I understand all of it since I work with browsers and do weird and wonderful things with them every day.

Next thing I will do is have a look through the TMS code and see what I can see in terms of migration. As far as I can tell there shouldnt be that much to do for it.

If you want to take on the role, @ossilator, im perfectly happy for you to do that, Im not competing with you.

[ossilator]

noooo, you go ahead. you may hear from me when you post PRs. 😁

[christopherreay]

OK Pal! Thank you :)

I will have a bunch of free time in July. Lets see if I can get it oaann :)

[trekshcool]

OK Pal! Thank you :)

I will have a bunch of free time in July. Lets see if I can get it oaann :)

Really glad to see someone is on this, I personally have too many tabs tied up in the suspender ecosystem. Now both the other forks have died and been nuked form the store. One of them was even flagged as malware and nuked all my tabs which I only managed to recover because I had other ways to save the tabs which then I had to edit out all the extension stuff reload all my 500 tabs in full and then resuspend with TMS.

I am pretty rusty in terms of coding but I can probably help bugfix when the time comes.

[ThisIsSammysAccount]

Hi Gioxx. I've was a long time user of Great Suspender and switched to TMS very early, so I greatly appreciate your effort to keep this project alive and would like to see it continue. There have not been any updates here since June - did christopherreay get involved or has there been any traction on the upgrade? I am a developer and may be able to help but I don't want to blindly insert myself. I'd also be interested in understanding the overlap between this extension and Chrome's new memory management features, as asked in #218. Because TMS does such a great job I've never experimented with Chrome's new functionality - hoping someone here can give a simple comparison. Thanks!

[christopherreay]

So the chrome thing is called "Chrome Memory Management".

• 

built in stuff

• Chrome has tab "freezing", which keeps all the memory of tabs, but doesnt update the DOM and can cause javascript to pause too.
• Then there is tab Discard, which you can see in the state diagram, and which is "like TMS"

The Marvelous (that we all love) Suspender

• Marvelous suspender navigates to a new page, potentially leaving the old page in the "back cache" (you can see that in the diagram as well if you read the bits and pieces in the bottom right).
• Marvelous Suspender keeps the favicon (this is a bit problematic on my system sometimes, as it seems to want to reload the favicons all the time)
• TMS puts up the page we know and love which has three features I use.
• 1. I can copy the original url from the URL in the new page
• 2. I can copy the actual address bar URL of the TMS page, and copy that to a different browser and it will still work properly
• 3. clicking anywhere on the page loads the page afresh.
• TMS has the export/import tooling, which is also very useful

comparison Chrome Discard, and TMS

• so Chrome Discard aims to be totally transparent to the user
• this creates some issues for developers, which chrome has extensive documentation about... the diagram above shows that it is possible for a tab to be "discarded" without any notification to a web page, which means from a use perspective a page has to be able to ... like reload itself into exactly where it was before, without any provocation, and without the user noticing
• this is different to the TMS where it is very clear to a user that a page has been unloaded.
• I find that if something gets unloaded by tms that I didnt want unloaded, I just whitelist it. This is good UX imo
• There's no tools for managing tabs as in export
• It doesnt have "Marvelous" in the title.

Other stuff

• Ive reveiwed the upcoming changes to ... chrome manifest version 3.0 and it shouldnt really have an impact on how TMS works. It will impact heavily stuff like ublock_origin, which relies on keeping bock lists up to date.

---

Thats a decent first go at it. If anyone has any questions we can all try and answer them.

Is there a way of contacting the users? Any idea? I have to say I didnt really consider the "community" around TMS until the debacle with the sale.

[Crypto-Spartan]

Thanks for providing all of this info, this has been super informative.

I do have some additional questions:

• what is the behavior when TMS & chrome tab discarding are both enabled?
• if you have an extension such as Auto Tab Discard, how does this change Chrome's discarding behavior? (does it purely just make it timer-based when the tab isn't active?) what happens if you use Auto Tab Discard with chrome's memory saver? what happens if you use it without?
• how does this TMS setting interact with chrome's memory saver? (apply chrome's built-in memory saving):
  

[mkz7]

Sad to say, I have been informed by Gioxx that users of The Marvellous Suspender will have to replace it with another option once manifest v3 goes into effect (assumed to be as of Jan. 1, 2024). Apparently, no group effort to keep TMS alive has materialized.

Is there any consensus at the current time as to what the best replacement(s) for TMS is/are?

[Poopooracoocoo]

Jan 2024 is an old date for the removal of MV2 extension APIs in Chrome, if I recall correctly. I don't think Google has set a new phase out date yet.

[mkz7]

I don't think Google has set a new phase out date yet.

Gioxx is no doubt aware of that, and perhaps the date will be extended.
But as of the current date there is no projected continuation of TMS once v3 goes into effect.
If group development does occur in the interim, the pessimistic forecast could indeed change.
I reported the current projection.

[christopherreay]

I've already mentioned and analysed the requirements of v3. in fact in my response two days ago.

…

On Wed, 20 Sept 2023, 18:47 mkz7, ***@***.***> wrote: _I don't think Google has set a new phase out date yet._ Gioxx is no doubt aware of that, and perhaps the date will be extended. But as of the current date there is no projected continuation of TMS once v3 goes into effect. If group development does occur in the interim, the pessimistic forecast could indeed change. I reported the current projection. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#197 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAB2PPRAX3XTP7AZBDIVSA3X3MTZ5ANCNFSM6AAAAAARHZESZ4> . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[mkz7]

I've already mentioned and analysed the requirements of v3. in fact in my response two days ago.

So your conclusion is that TMS requires nothing to continue 'as is' under v.3?

Also, what does "the debacle with the sale" refer to?

[christopherreay]

Aye, so the major changes for manifest 3 are about the interface to the internet for extensions. This "makes everything more efficient", whilst also making it a total pita for extensions to update or access any information. So... ublock_origin will only be able to update blocklists by actually updating the extension.

There may be some syntax changes, or w/e, but fundamentally the v3 changes dont really interact with the core behaviour of TMS.

So TGS was sold to someone who then turned TGS into malware, which is what caused TMS to be forked

Cheers :)

[mkz7]

Presumably, gioxx is aware of the situation and has nonetheless forecast the end of TMS.

My impression is that a level of developer networking to keep it alive would be needed that so far has not occurred and that gioxx doesn't expect to occur.

If your view turns out to be accurate, the unexpected tenure of TMS with no revamping will no doubt be welcome both to gioxx and to all of TMS's users.

I knew about TGS and its 'bad end' but wondered what that has to do with the current status quo -- i.e., the survival of TMS under manifest v3.

[ThisIsSammysAccount]

Thanks christopherreay for the excellent info and Crypto-Spartan for asking basically the same follow up questions I had. I looked into a couple of the answers:

• what is the behavior when TMS & chrome tab discarding are both enabled?

There are 2 Chrome features to consider, Tab Freeze and Discard, both of which can work alongside TMS. The Freeze feature, as mentioned, puts a page in the "Frozen" state and basically disables scripting on events on the page. That will result in CPU usage improvements, but not necessarily memory improvements unless the site developers follow the recommendations and clean up on this event. Details on the frozen state and recommendations here:
https://developer.chrome.com/articles/page-lifecycle-api/#state-frozen

The Freeze event will still take place on hidden pages both before TMS suspend kicks in, and after a page is suspended and put into back cache (as long as the TMS "chrome memory saver" option detailed below is not enabled). I couldn't find documentation on exactly when the Freeze event happens so I went to the Chromium source. As far as I can tell, it basically applies to everything but your last 3 visible tabs, so it will certainly trigger before TMS steps in.
https://github.com/chromium/chromium/blob/main/chrome/android/java/src/org/chromium/chrome/browser/native_page/NativePageAssassin.java#L87

The Discard event could occur before TMS' timer steps in, if a page was whitelisted in TMS, or after a page was suspended by TMS (either immediately, see below setting, or "naturally"). I'm not positive exactly when the Discard event "naturally" occurs, but it appears to relate to a Chrome flag or setting that isn't visible anymore or defaults to 120 minutes of tab inactivity. In concept, this would mean that tabs are Discarded before, after, or potentially concurrently to TMS attempting a suspend, depending on the TMS setting. The Discard is what would provide the main memory savings.

• if you have an extension such as Auto Tab Discard, how does this change Chrome's discarding behavior?

Not positive as I don't use any other memory management extensions. I expect it just further modifies the timing of the Discard event as noted below.

• how does this TMS setting interact with chrome's memory saver? (apply chrome's built-in memory saving):

From the tooltip info:

"Reduces a suspended tab's memory usage even more, by utilizing
Chrome's built-in 'tab discarding' functionality. This can result in up
to 500% memory savings when working with large numbers of tabs.

However, it will also cause a slight rendering delay when selecting
a suspended tab."

That actually is not the full story. What it actually does is attempt to forcefully Discard the tab as soon as TMS suspends it. As noted in the flowchart above, a Discard is more aggressive than a Freeze and is the same as a full tab close, so awakening the tab in TMS will reload it fully and you will lose state and form data. That may still occur after a period of time if the setting is enabled in Chrome, see above, but may be too aggressive if your TMS suspend timer is set low. The actual forced discard process happens here:
https://github.com/gioxx/MarvellousSuspender/blob/master/src/js/gsTabDiscardManager.js#L28

More good info on tab Discards and managing them:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/chrome-110-will-automatically-discard-background-tabs-heres-how-to-stop-it/

It seems to me that since back cache is "standard" in the current version of Chrome, to get the full benefit of suspending tabs either the TMS "chrome memory saver" option or the native Chrome Memory Saver option needs to be enabled. They do the same thing, the question will just be on timing and how much control you want to have without an additional extensions.

To summarize, it does appear that Chrome is now capable of providing most of the performance benefit that TMS used to bring. As noted, however, TMS provides much more control, the ability to look through suspended (potentially Discarded) tabs without bringing them back to life, a better user interface, and session tracking with import/export. To me, that is still enough of a reason to keep it alive, so it is worth the effort to look into the manifest migration.

[christopherreay]

who are you? xx

…

On Mon, 23 Sept 2024, 08:18 aybanda, ***@***.***> wrote: @christopherreay <https://github.com/christopherreay> @trekshcool <https://github.com/trekshcool> Here is what I think I can help contributing: Code Migration: I can assist in migrating the codebase from Manifest V2 to Manifest V3. This involves updating the manifest file, converting background scripts to service workers, and adapting APIs to work with the new manifest version. Feature Preservation: I can help identify which features can be preserved in Manifest V3 and which ones might need alternatives. For example, tab suspension and restoration, whitelist functionality, and settings management can likely be preserved, while some background processes may need to be reimplemented. Performance Optimisation: I can work on optimising the extension's performance within the constraints of Manifest V3, such as implementing efficient state management in the service worker and minimising resource usage. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#197 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAB2PPTQ5HRJKOOUGHI3G3TZX6JCVAVCNFSM6AAAAAARHZESZ6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDGNRXGIYDQMJVG4> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[aybanda]

I'm Ajay and a developer
Helping solving issues

[christopherreay]

sounds great. thank you.. who's the person that does the tiny thing?

…

On Mon, 23 Sept 2024, 10:30 aybanda, ***@***.***> wrote: I'm Ajay Helping solving issues — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#197 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAB2PPSJV3IKUZAK2NJJ4A3ZX6YQTAVCNFSM6AAAAAARHZESZ6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDGNRXGMZDSMBZG4> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[aybanda]

I have no idea about that

[trekshcool]

Tinysuspender owner is @arifwn

Thanks a lot to @aybanda for saving this project.

[aybanda]

It's too early to thank me
@trekshcool

[aybanda]

@christopherreay @trekshcool @gioxx
check this PR #236

[trekshcool]

What would be the steps involved in testing this out, I can get the chrome beta branch which has v3 but how to download the compiled extension with your pull request from github or will it have to wait until its committed into the master.

[user334]

@trekshcool the Chrome's extensions are more or less just zip files with all the contents you see here in the repo. So I think you can just clone or simply download @aybanda's fork and install it to any Chrome instance you have by drag'n'drop-ing its folder onto chrome://extensions settings page. Note that you have to enable the "developer mode" switch there to be able to do so.

[d1Bihkte]

[christopherreay]

The latest version of Chrome Beta removes the extension. This is the stuff of night mares. OK Ayabanda. What kind of time commitment are you able to make on this? How much work do you think is left for your to be able to get this to work effectively? Is the "allow loading file URLs" or whatever thing a permanent requirement for this to work? Thank you so much. Ill happily send you some money for some coffees. Maybe lets all get on a zoom? Be prepared to have your predictions come true

…

On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 07:55, d1Bihkte ***@***.***> wrote: image.png (view on web) <https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/27926370-d37a-43c8-8996-310be468484e> — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#197 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAB2PPSBCTF3B7FRAZ5MWNLZ2X3B3AVCNFSM6AAAAAARHZESZ6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDIMBTHA4TEMBUGE> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[trekshcool]

Its finally happening, chrome is now a/b testing disabling v2 extensions on the latest main chrome release.

For those of us who have the registry trick it will work for a few more months but for the rest the end is now.

[Technetium1]

I've completed my move away from Chrome, and have helped very many others do the same. I am already satisfied by the stock discard ability in Firefox and derivatives, but I've further enhanced it with Auto Tab Discard. There's a Chrome version, but I haven't tried it due to trying to leave Chrome. Seems to not have the MV2 banner in the Chrome store, so it may work in the future.

Avoid browsers based on Chromium; Brave, Opera, Edge, Vivaldi, and Chrome. It just digs us into a deeper hole.

I've been enjoying this browser the most so far https://github.com/floorp-Projects/floorp/, along with these extensions https://github.com/Technetium1/BrowserExtensions

[christopherreay]

i use chrome dev tools as an integral part of my workflow

…

On Thu, 31 Oct 2024, 00:45 Technetium1, ***@***.***> wrote: I've completed my move away from Chrome, and have helped very many others do the same. I am already satisfied by the stock discard ability in Firefox and derivatives, but I've further enhanced it with Auto Tab Discard <https://github.com/Technetium1/BrowserExtensions/blob/main/README.md#auto-tab-discard>. There's a Chrome version, but I haven't tried it due to trying to leave Chrome. Seems to not have the MV2 banner in the Chrome store, so it *may* work in the future. *Avoid* browsers based on Chromium; Brave, Opera, Edge, Vivaldi, and Chrome. It just digs us into a deeper hole. I've been enjoying this browser the most so far https://github.com/floorp-Projects/floorp/, along with these extensions https://github.com/Technetium1/BrowserExtensions — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#197 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAB2PPQI37QM2UBWUVHEEOLZ6FAODAVCNFSM6AAAAAARHZESZ6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDINBYGMZTSOBVGY> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[mpql]

I prefer doing development and manual testing in-browser via Chromium. I use Brave for this, and it works great. Brave has already force-enabled Manifest V2 support, and is supposedly going to continue support for Manifest V2 for as long as they're able.

For my own use cases and experiences, I've found anything based on Firefox to be lacking in a lot of basic areas (still can't find anything to reliably to change keyboard shortcuts, e.g. the Ctrl+Shift+P New Private Tab option), and even though they have new "features" that pop up and feel like ads to me (and that's to say nothing of default-on "Experiments" and telemetry extensions being downloaded to your browser), they seem to fall behind in terms of browser feature support, user experience, and even just base engine upgrades.

For privacy, I use LibreWolf, and for customizability / work / as a daily driver, I use Brave. I don't think it's (yet?) called for to swear off Chromium-based browsers.

[christopherreay]

yep I'm using brave to which works fine

…

On Thu, 31 Oct 2024, 01:00 mpql, ***@***.***> wrote: I prefer doing development and manual testing in-browser via Chromium. I use Brave for this, and it works great. Brave has already force-enabled Manifest V2 support, and is supposedly going to continue support for Manifest V2 <https://brave.com/blog/brave-shields-manifest-v3/> for as long as they're able. For my own use cases and experiences, I've found anything based on Firefox to be lacking in a lot of basic areas (still can't find anything to reliably to change keyboard shortcuts, e.g. the Ctrl+Shift+P New Private Tab option), and even though they have new "features" that pop up and feel like ads to me (and that's to say nothing of default-on "Experiments" and telemetry extensions being downloaded to your browser), they seem to fall behind in terms of browser feature support, user experience, and even just base engine upgrades. For privacy, I use LibreWolf <https://codeberg.org/librewolf/source/releases>, and for customizability / work / as a daily driver, I use Brave <https://github.com/brave/brave-browser/releases>. I don't think it's (yet?) called for to swear off Chromium-based browsers. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#197 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAB2PPXN62ZHNYPU4PPQH5DZ6FCFPAVCNFSM6AAAAAARHZESZ6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDINBYGM3DSOJXGM> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[RJVB]

Just chiming in to state that

* 2. I can copy the actual address bar URL of the TMS page, and copy that to a different browser and it will still work properly

This has been my lifesaver when the original TGS got disabled and I could simply remove all the crud before the URL of the suspended page (and immediately re-suspend with TMS).

AFAICR none of the alternatives I tried have this safety feature.

(Of course, then I had a reason to migrate to Firefox, which I'll keep using for yet different reasons, except on ChromeOS.)

EDIT: will the V2 extension continue to work in older versions of Chrome?!

[mkz7]

> Avoid browsers based on Chromium; Brave, Opera, Edge, Vivaldi, and Chrome. It just digs us into a deeper hole.

What's wrong with Brave?
Also, TMS continues to work so far in Brave.

[RJVB]

On Friday November 15 2024 15:39:43 mkz7 wrote: What's wrong with Brave?

Probably nothing besides being based on Chromium, which has become a terribly bloated affair, almost an entire OS on its own. Do you know why a desktop browser would require USB, Bluetooth and who knows what else drivers and access capability instead of simply going through the actual OS? Right, me neither. I won't pretend I understand all the details of why they disable(d) "V2 Manifest" support but I get the impression it's one of those "let's break it because there's nothing to fix" things only meant to force people to adapt yet more change.

[mpql]

Do you know why a desktop browser would require USB, Bluetooth [...]

WebUSB API and Web Bluetooth API are draft specs, and as a web developer, I've generally been very happy when Chromium incorporates these early, because it often takes Mozilla years, and their existence often makes my work easier.

Google obviously has a financial incentive in this, but it's overall made the web better, imo. In terms of practical use, I have seen and used plenty of both brand and personal projects that can update devices, modify firmware, etc. regardless of OS using these APIs (after some permissions boxes), which I think is pretty cool. I don't need to agree with Google's goals to make use of their tech, and there are plenty of talented and forward-thinking engineers there that are actually trying pretty hard to improve the web, even if I don't use their product directly.

You can read more about the APIs on MDN:

• WebUSB API
• Web Bluetooth API

I won't pretend I understand all the details of why they disable(d) "V2 Manifest" support but I get the impression it's one of those "let's break it because there's nothing to fix" things only meant to force people to adapt yet more change.

I'm pretty sure that is specifically to break ad blockers. I'm sure it has performance and security implications as well, but I'd put money on the primary motivator being money — Google makes a great deal of its money from selling ads.

These two sets of reasoning together are why I like Chromium, but prefer the Google part removed so they don't get to make sweeping decisions for me. It's my machine, and my eyes, and I don't want to spend CPU cycles processing or my time and background mental wellbeing (seeing lots of ads contributes to overall stress and focus loss) just to be exposed to nonsense designed to benefit corporations. Some get their products purchased, and companies like google sell space running ads to me like they own the space in the first place, and I don't see a cent. I take ethical offense to that.

The reason I like Brave is because they make their profit motive very clear. They do all that stuff with crypto and ad share programs, and it's very easy to disable both by UI and policy. They keep the lights on, and folks with preferences like mine don't have to deal with it. And they're leaving MV2 in for the foreseeable future. And if those things ever change, I will just switch to a different browser — likely more Chromium, unless something better comes along.

[RJVB]

On Saturday November 16 2024 09:39:23 mpql wrote: I have seen and used plenty of both brand and personal projects that can update devices, modify firmware, etc. regardless of OS using these APIs

That's about the only reason I can think of, and you don't need to have them in your main browser for such occasional applications (even less in an embedded version like QtWebengine which is often used only to display HTML-based documentation or emails.

I'm pretty sure that is specifically to break ad blockers.

That would be my guess too, esp. since I had reports of people being warned to turn their ad blocker off on YT. But that should also imply that the FOSS community behind Chromium has an equally big incentive to maintain the V2 code. Do V3 extensions still have access to the filesystem and to helper applications? Those could be a way around the lack of direct web access but helper applications can be a PITA in their own right. (Example: I can use the VideoDownloadHelper extension in Chromium Legacy on a "retroMac" just fine, but not the helper application. Can't even build it myself because NodeJS based and dependent on a module that won't run on the "retroOS".)

[trekshcool]

Brave relies on chromium in the end when googles removes manifest v2 fully there will be nothing brave will be able to do to keep v2 going.

[mkz7]

@trekshcool … Brave posted the linked article below in June. I don't know whether there are specific attributes to TMS that may prevent its inclusion in this 'preservation' plan (I know the emphasis is on 'privacy-protection' extensions -- AdGuard AdBlocker, NoScript, uBlock Origin, uMatrix) but if enough Brave users specifically request that TMS be included, maybe that'll do the trick.

"We recognize the importance of supporting existing Manifest V2 extensions. We have force-enabled Manifest V2 support in the Brave browser, ensuring that you can continue to use your favorite extensions without interruption."

https://brave.com/blog/brave-shields-manifest-v3/

[mpql]

That's about the only reason I can think of, and you don't need to have them in your main browser for such occasional applications

Game controllers, keyboard customization, interaction with IoT devices, etc. I'm sure we'll see plenty more uses out of it once it's actually released, or it'll get dropped. In either case, it removes a lot of barriers even in its present state. If you don't want to use a Chromium browser, don't, but I think it's premature to tell others not to for something that might happen in the future.

Do V3 extensions still have access to the filesystem and to helper applications?

The biggest change is the removal of chrome.webRequest, which is currently being used to kill / prevent requests (I haven't looked into which) to blocked servers.

Brave relies on chromium in the end when googles removes manifest v2 fully there will be nothing brave will be able to do to keep v2 going.

Which, to remove, would upset a lot of chrome enterprise clients. If you're referring to the Brenden Eich tweet, I read that as the terms that would definitely allow them to keep it in, but who's to say they don't just add an independent Mv2 handler or extend things so they don't have to fork. I don't know Google or Brave's long-term plans other than what they say, nor any intricacies of the Chromium source that might make this untenable, but it seems perfectly workable to me at present.

Like I say above, if you want to move away from Brave, whatever, do it — everyone should use whichever browser they like. I don't think reactively telling folks that they should avoid Chromium-based web browsers based on things that might happen makes any sense at present. I'm personally going to wait and see what choices these companies make. If they do something I don't like, or if a better browser crops up, sure, I'll switch, but everything is working fine at present.

[RJVB]

On Saturday November 16 2024 14:03:49 mpql wrote: If *you* don't want to use a Chromium browser, don't, but I think it's premature to tell others not to for something that might happen in the future.

To be clear, I was just listing my main reasons for not being fond of Chromium. I do use it from time to time (besides when I use my ChromeTab) and actually can since I figured out that disabling WebUSB stops my USB audio interface from doing a continuous reset loop that's mighty unkind on any speakers attached (and thus probably also on the amp). Chromium isn't at fault here, except for re-enabling the feature under certain circumstances (like editing the browsersync settings).

> Brave relies on chromium in the end when googles removes manifest v2 fully there will be nothing brave will be able to do to keep v2 going.

But Chromium isn't all Google is it? Why would they forcibly remove a feature some contributors want to (and can) maintain if they can simply disable it in their own branded builds?

[mpql]

All good, I'm responding to the sentiment that people should avoid Chrome in general, but apologies if I'm coming off brusque.

[christopherreay]

because Google are "not" evil

…

On Sun, 17 Nov 2024, 04:15 mpql, ***@***.***> wrote: All good, I'm responding to the sentiment that people should avoid Chrome in general, but apologies if I'm coming off brusque. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#197 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAB2PPT3IEILG3ZYOQU5WX32A7N3TAVCNFSM6AAAAAARHZESZ6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDIOBQHA3DEMBQHE> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[RJVB]

On Sunday November 17 2024 00:54:58 jayDayZee wrote: because Google are "not" evil

Indeed they're not, not anymore than Microsoft are (github is still owned by them I presume? ;) ) I have less qualms trusting Google with certain of my data than a government (and am now grateful I never felt like exposing my life and thoughts to the tweetybirds!)