Monero Community Workgroup Meeting: December 7th 16:00 UTC

[plowsof]

Location: Libera.chat, #monero-community | Matrix

Instructions for joining the monero.social Matrix server.

Time
16:00 UTC Check your timezone

Moderator: plowsof

Please reach out in advance of the meeting if you would like to propose an agenda item.

Proposed Meeting Items:

1. Introduction
2. Greetings
3. Community highlights
   • RandomX 5 year anniversary
   • Bi-Directional XMR<>BCH swaps added to BasicSwapDex - tweet
   • FCMP++ video - Vostoemisio reddit
     News: Monero Observer - Revuo Monero
4. CCS updates
   a v1docq47 - monerotopia 2024 voiceovers and working on xmr.ru
   b. selsta part-time monero development (3 months)
   c. Kewbits Haveno GUI update / partial payout request
   d. CryptoCheckout Email marketing campaign to onboard new merchants
5. Workgroup reports
   a. Dev workgroup
   b. Localization workgroup
   c. Outreach workgroup
   d. Events workgroup - MoneroKon 2025
   e. Website workgroup
   f. Policy workgroup
   g. Research workgroup
   h. Seraphis Migration workgroup
6. Open ideas time
7. Confirm next meeting date/time

Previous meeting including logs

Meeting logs will be posted here afterwards.

not discussing / voted to close:
e. Carrot animated video
f. CryptoCheckout WordPress plugin (for WooCommerce) & Shopify app

[plowsof]

Logs

< plowsof > Meeting time #1120

< plowsof > greetings all!

< plowsof > birthday wishes to RandomX which celebrates its 5th https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1h6e4

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > 404

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > hello, happy birthday randomX

< m​alori:xavi.lu > happi birthday randomX :3

< plowsof > sorry, correct link https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1h6e4nk/randomx_5_year_anniversary/

< plowsof > Monero Observer - Revuo Monero

< plowsof > any other none haveno-related news since the last meeting? 😅 Revuo looks packed with some recent events

< plowsof > rucknium.me/donate is functional again after nioCat reported outdated rates, had to navigate docker with him and then update the backend with latest binaries and such , got there in the end

< plowsof > logs of the last MRL meeting @ #1119

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > Hello

< plowsof > 👋

< plowsof > we can jump into the CCS ideas then if nothing else is to be shared

< plowsof > 5. CCS updates

< plowsof > a v1docq47 - monerotopia 2024 voiceovers and working on xmr.ru

< plowsof > this seems to have sat long enough now and has obtained the usual positive feedback after being shared around xmr.ru channels

< o​frnxmr:xmr.mx > Fcmp dev ccs is complete

< o​frnxmr:monero.social > Sorry, slow HS

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > Pretty happy to see the russian community active. too much FOSS places where russians have been expelled

< m​alori:xavi.lu > more people knowing and using monero is just a plus

< nioCat > s e l s t a

< ofrnxmr > atsles is always hete

< ofrnxmr > Here*

< ofrnxmr > Merge A

< plowsof > thanks ofrnxmr, yes, kayabanerves update on FCMP development completion https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/448#note_27450

< plowsof > ok so merging v1do moving on

< plowsof > b. selsta part-time monero development (3 months)

< ofrnxmr > Merge

< nioCat > ++

< a​nchoc:matrix.org > +1

< plowsof > unsurprisingly support for selsta on the gitlabs / here, merging selsta

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > selsta the GOAT

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > (Greatest Of All Time)

< selsta > <3

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > =/= 🐐

< ofrnxmr > Selsta can also climb steep cliffs

< plowsof > c. Kewbits Haveno GUI update / partial payout request

< ofrnxmr > skip for now

< ofrnxmr > Do the email one first

< plowsof > can give kewbit more time to join if he wishes

< ofrnxmr > Email one is faster

< plowsof > d. CryptoCheckout Email marketing campaign to onboard new merchants

< ofrnxmr > Close

< plowsof > the project that this wishes to advertise, is going to be closed / not discussed at meetings anymore ( cryptocheckout https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/514 ) so i doubt we want to fund an email campaign for it

< ofrnxmr > Were closing the other half of this, i dont see why we'd pay for an email campaign for bad sw

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > I'm not a big fan of CCS endorsing a marketing campaign for a proprietary product

< ofrnxmr > +1 plow

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > I vote for closing

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > Close

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > hi sorry I'm late

< ofrnxmr > Better be

< plowsof > 👋

< ofrnxmr > Ok, we can do kewbit now

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > New reddit post:

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > [Drama] ofrnxmr casually threatening people for not being late.

< plowsof > ok closing cyrptocheckout + email campaign

< plowsof > c. Kewbits Haveno GUI update / partial payout request

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > everyone to their battlestations

< ofrnxmr > 1 person at a time 😆

< plowsof > so , yes/no for the 50% payout request before source is provided for some miletone(s)

< plowsof > can we start there? easier

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > obvious no

< ofrnxmr > Absolutely not

< a​nchoc:matrix.org > no

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > no

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > no

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > No

< plowsof > request Denied 🔨 , now, the floor is somewhat open

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > so here's a long ass list in case people forgot:

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - insult, defamation and behavior during first milestone and beyond

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - bisq criticism and other clear evidence of the lack of effort put in the CCS.

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - break of word with Diego

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - haveno.com domain and website

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - havenodex on docker hub

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - haveno crate

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - the delusion on the exit-scam

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - lack of documentation on his ai generated shit he delivered in his repo and lied about the deliverable being 'most up to date'.

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - the Lie regarding monero-wallet (he didn't know about it, yet retweeted about it). don't tell he isn't the one that have flagged it.

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > - bitkew grabbing link (doxxing attempt) + monerobull password reset

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > Too much drama, immediate closure is necessary. It's taking unnecessary time and space from contributors

< ofrnxmr > +1 for closing and ban from ccs and bounty

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > +1 with diego

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > - not working lib for which he got payed

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > No accusations have been addresses on anything from AI to no source with anything of substance. Just whining.

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > Life is too short to move forward with this proposal.

< plowsof > communities trust has been eroded here, overwhelmingly. there are some positives - the monero-wallet crate name was handed over to boog900 unconditionally after a request...

< ofrnxmr > Worse than whining. The issues keep piling up

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > At this point I would not be surprised by a backdoor, kewbits code can not be trusted in my opinion

< ofrnxmr > Boog voted to close

< plowsof > its true that there is not enough bandwidth to discuss only ONE ccs proposal for days at a time in here

< b​oog900:monero.social > My crates were then deleted btw

< plowsof > what does that mean boog?

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > Send the funds to woodser and let him handle it

< plowsof > intended? or

< ofrnxmr > https://codeberg.org/HavenoDEX/ diego

< b​oog900:monero.social > An hour later after the transfer my crates were deleted. I was told someone reported one of my crates. I have since got the cuprate crates back

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > Doesn't have to be earmarked for an app, just generally use the money to fund haveno development

< ofrnxmr > Mb, thats a new ccs.

< w​oodser:monero.social > only thing I'd propose is giving a deadline to release the code, in hopes of getting the code for the greater benefit of the project

< ofrnxmr > Woodser https://codeberg.org/HavenoDEX/haveno-app

< ofrnxmr > https://codeberg.org/HavenoDEX ***

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > Did you try the haveno dart package for the interface ?

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > The drain on the non-monetary resources of the community far outweighs the benefit of getting some code that will have to be looked over and verified VERY thoroughly.

< ofrnxmr > You want to give more time to someone who uses you for their own personal gain?

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > Even if kewbit is supposedly gatekeeping a fully-fledged application, do we want kewbit to be the maintainer?

< plowsof > traditionally the CCS does give the proposer ALOT OF LENIENCY in regards to expiry dates (see work in progress ) but this is an exceptional case.

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > speaking of, expiry dates are required by the rules, and we should be better about enforcing that

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > it would really make this a non-issue

< plowsof > i pressume a full audit (cryptographic / security) even would have to be funded due to doubts raising? all of which is not free

< ofrnxmr > no. Some ppl have expiry dates that we dont enforce

< ofrnxmr > Like soloptxmr

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > I agree. There wasn't any excuses at all, valid or not from kewbit regarding his delays, yet we accepted.

< m​alori:xavi.lu > enforcing expiry date is heh, a lot of stuff can happen in one's life that can explain delivering late

< m​alori:xavi.lu > as long its delivered in the end

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > Yes that's why I think we should be listening to explanations/ public or private

< ofrnxmr > This wouldnt be expired even if there was one.

< plowsof > those issues need to be raised / communicated in a timely manner

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > We have already taken the high road as a project, this would be taking the road so high it's in the clouds

< plowsof > lol

< plowsof > angelic music

< a​nchoc:matrix.org > the only concern is for other CCS participants. It would be nice for them to have the comfort of knowing an authoritative deadline was presented and every opportunity given. even if discussion is ended immediately and the deadline is short, 48 hours?

< plowsof > i see a face in the clouds.. luigi1111 👼

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > that said, I'm willing to throw my vote behind woodser

< a​nchoc:matrix.org > the angels will thank us

< ofrnxmr > This is simply someone who thought they could abuse ccs, made some $, and thinks he can keep pushing

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > but I would make the deadline non-generous

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > something like a week

< ofrnxmr > I'm voting close immediately

< plowsof > woodser "only thing I'd propose is giving a deadline to release the code, in hopes of getting the code for the greater benefit of the project"

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > Voting to close immediately too.

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > Seriously, who went to the work of the first payed milestone and checked if it was even working ?

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > I think aside the enforcement of delays, the verification of deliverables should also be enforced, at least if there is amendment of rule 4 on update on a regular basis

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > Not I. I was assured it met the requirements by several parties, and operated on this assumption. A mistake, clearly.

< ofrnxmr > Woodser vouched then too

< plowsof > i noted that 76~ payouts have occured since july2nd, with no such squabbles or issues - trust and taking peoples word for things plays a role

< m​onerobull:monero.social > Never ever allow compromises on the development must be Foss rule

< m​onerobull:monero.social > Never again

< m​alori:xavi.lu > +1

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > I agree with monerobull. Stealing of code in early development process has never been an issue and have always be met with anger and bad outcomes for the stealers

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > rule 4 should be amended to read that WIP must be made available upon request from Core regardless of state?

< ofrnxmr > https://codeberg.org/HavenoDEX/

< p​reland:monero.social > There should also be something along the lines of “I understand what this CCS entails in it’s entirety” in case there’s ever an issue where someone just didn’t read things well enough

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > even if it's just to a few people that core can assign to take a look at it and vouch that it exists

< a​nchoc:matrix.org > +1

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > I know several, including ofrn, have been against all WIP code being available all the time as draconian

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > and I can see this viewpoint

< p​reland:monero.social > There should also be some form of a continuation plan in case someone has to stop their CCS before it is completed (ie this situation, or someone just keels over and dies in the middle of theirs)

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > diego if core is ready to endorse the verification and engage its credibility then yes it is reasonable. I still think FOSS at all time would be a simpler and more effective solution

< ofrnxmr > no, i think rule 4 should only allow requests for source when the proposer is withholding after periods of timr

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > but core should reserve the right to be able to see hidden code for the sake of verification

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > at the least because if you know they're not really working on it, that we can do something else with our time and money

< plowsof > The CCS (Donors/Community) are the A side in this transaction - there is no "leverage" to be gained from threatening to not release sources - the only damage done is to the proposer himself.

< ofrnxmr > Like soloptxmr or e n d o g e n i c

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > that said, what rule 4 should be amended to is a bit off-topic on this point of discussion.

< ofrnxmr > If you want to pretend like there is a WIP and continuously stall, then you should have tk make that WIP public

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > It seems the current topic has a loose consensus of closing the proposal

< plowsof > a flat 6 month expiry merge request can be made to soloptxmr

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > its not even loose consensus at this point we're a hive mind

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > It doesn't seem to work.

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > https://github.com/KewbitXMR/flutter_haveno/issues

< plowsof > there is not much demand to get that finished, currently, only the thorn in my side

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > the real question from my point of view is not if kewbit is a scammer. He is since he requested funds for unfinished work.

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > The real question is how does the CCS took the decision to pay the 75xmr for getting a non working library and what to fix to prevent this to happen again ?

< ofrnxmr > Soloptxmr had an expiry of oct 2022

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > Maybe CCS proposals should include fund for testers ?

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > It doesn't seem to work.

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > https://github.com/KewbitXMR/flutter\_haveno/issues

< ofrnxmr > LM, we took woodsers word at face value

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > the real question from my point of view is not if kewbit is a scammer. He is since he requested funds for unfinished work.

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > The real question is how does the CCS took the decision to pay the 75xmr for getting a non working library and what to fix to prevent this to happen again ?

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > Maybe CCS proposals should include a fund for testers ?

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > Louis-Marie Diego explained he received confirmation by several third parties that the code was ok

< p​reland:monero.social > Sad day for woodser

< plowsof > we are lucky that the monero-core dev proposals require pull requests to be merged into monero-core repositories .. and their peers are trusted persons who they work around on a day-to-day basis

< ofrnxmr > plowsof, another example is jbermans fcmp work

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > Sorry woodser, did you tried the dart package or just looked at the code ?

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > in the early days of the drama, the investigation that was assigned to me wasn't that the code worked, that seemed to be a given, but all that ancillary stuff.

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > Ah alright I understand

< plowsof > i looks like a duck - quaks like a duck - but ideally needs an app created that uses it to prove its real - which is another milestone : this also played a role in decisions

< ofrnxmr > the 75xmr was requested to be paid out by woodser, and without any objections from community, it seemed everything was in order for that specific milestone

< plowsof > he had more to lose than to gain (still does)

< plowsof > (thanks for the vote rbrunner7)

< w​oodser:monero.social > I only reviewed the dart package from a high level, and tested the app as an executable to verify the overall thing. I was upfront about this in my feedback for his payout

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > No need for witch hunting, the responsibility is on no one, we all missed diligence regarding kewbit despite his behavior. Dart isn't exactly a mainstream language and we all assume we have better things to do than auditing an in progress code.

< ofrnxmr > Kewbit took this as "nobody is looking, i can get away with anything. Even woodser has my back" and proceeded to take advantage of woodsers kindness with stuff like https://codeberg.org/HavenoDEX/

< p​reland:monero.social > Since it is looking like the source code won’t be released, I’ll post the screenshots of my conversation with who I now believe was indeed kewbit if wanted

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > ofrnxmr fwiw we can contact codeberg and get the Account back

< ofrnxmr > Kewbit also claimed (a few hours ago) to own the rights to haveno name

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > link please

< p​reland:monero.social > That reminds me, kewbit was trying to invite me to some Haveno corporate org on GitLab

< l​m:matrix.baermail.fr > What I want to point out is not that someone overlooked the code, but that maybe there should be a more written process to verifiy work of milestone.

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > agree, will be something to discuss another time tho

< ofrnxmr > https://matrix.to/#/!UuoWQWMGvPBHkIgWGJ:monero.social/$AewU-mVyguXn5Zsqg_VEMnHfnpzQcWT_qi5irVNiU9s?via=xmr.mx&via=monero.social&via=matrix.org

< ofrnxmr > "I also own Haveno.Exchange trademark "

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > alright. Consensus achieved here.

< plowsof > touch crowd

< plowsof > tough*

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > Next point plowsof

< plowsof > not much else .. basically:

< plowsof > not discussing / voted to close:

< plowsof > e. Carrot animated video

< plowsof > f. CryptoCheckout WordPress plugin (for WooCommerce) & Shopify app

< plowsof > and Any other business really

< ofrnxmr > outside of the ccs, its important to note that kewbit is doing all sorts of unethical business against monero contributors

< plowsof > if only we knew someone with dart/flutter UI experience in the crypto sphere

< ofrnxmr > for an external entity to do these things, we'd assume a bad actor is attacking us. But this is from a ccs proposer who is supposed to be building software for haveno

< ofrnxmr > Cake and stack have dart/flutter devs

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > * Insert gigantic wink wink to CypherStack *

< ofrnxmr > I assume mrcyjanek as well

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > ok I admit. kewbit is my alt. I manufactured this whole thing to get Cypher Stack on a CCS retainer to confirm CCSs

< p​reland:monero.social > I’m willing to learn stuff (but not until I’m done with my pre-existing work, I can feel the weight of my procra-sins-ation)

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > 🤯.

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > 5D chess

< ofrnxmr > cypherstack will build the new app /s

< ofrnxmr > And will audit it

< ofrnxmr > Also, from my conversation with "markus", i'm pretty sure kewbit is markus is aloha

< m​onerobull:monero.social > I gotta go, good meeting thx plwsf

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > thanks mbll

< plowsof > thanks all for attending 👍 thanks mbll

< ofrnxmr > thanks mbll

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > thanks mbll

< p​reland:monero.social > “It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling”

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > ok well if that's most of the meeting

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > then I'll also hop off

< d​iego:cypherstack.com > thanks guys

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > 👋

< ofrnxmr > For the future, i think anybody on ccs must not take advantage of the community

< s​yntheticbird:monero.social > ofrnxmr dropping hot take

< plowsof > all future discussion of haveno gui - core - official - dex will be moved to haveno related channels, no ones interested

< plowsof > in seeing the same things commented or "Get fucked"

< r​eal_glitch:matrix.org > i dont know whats going on but as the most senior member of this community

< r​eal_glitch:matrix.org > i approve the result of this meeting!

< o​frnxmr:xmr.mx > https://matrix.to/#/#haveno.exchange:monero.social

< nioCat > I was not here for the Qbit discussion

< nioCat > a comment to those that are relatively new

< nioCat > the CCS usually has a requirement that the person has previously contributed to monero in order to "prove" themselves

< nioCat > in the form of work done voluntarily

< o​frnxmr:xmr.mx > i think that's a fair requirement. Stops random outsiders from opening "checkout/email campaign" ccs

< a​nchoc:matrix.org > i like that, is it an informal requirement? i don't see it ccs.getmonero.org/what-is-ccs/

< o​frnxmr:xmr.mx > Yes

[ ... ]

< o​frnxmr:xmr.mx > niocat plowsof << should we make it a formal requirement?

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